Brake booster software update - recall

[gossie]

Do we remember when we never had brake and steering boosters and we could actually drive?

 

[87VLCALAIS]

Do we remember when we never had brake and steering boosters and we could actually drive?

Going one or two further, does anyone remember when we had reigns for steering and a whip for an accelerator? Ahhh, those were the days.

 

[Skylarking]

Will never happen…. I have developed software for the last 25 years and on many projects i have spent many hours testing only to find a bug few weeks after release etc.

I’ve also worked in s/w development for far too long and despite what management espouse, quality is the first thing to be compromised.. Such is a common management mindset which definitely won’t change… It’s too late and too costly for that current mindset to change… On this I’m sure we agree

The hardest bugs to find are conditional bugs where it takes one condition to occur to cause another condition to fail.

The most difficult bugs to find are the ones you’re never given enough time to find. Formal verification is both difficult and costly and the desire to cut back to get something out the door is an ever present pressure. It goes without saying, making updates easier post delivery and the pressure on software/systems verification becomes even bigger.

As quality is always compromised to meet delivery, and as someone with years of experience, you’d be well aware that the easier it is to fix faults the more management mindset shifts to doing less verification since fixes can be easily rolled out as problems crop up. It’s the way of software but it isn’t a good way to build safety critical systems.

Even in the aerospace industry there has been countless software faults that have caused all sorts of problems in actual space missions and passenger aircraft which has resulted in downed aircraft and a lot of loss of life.
In many cases with passenger aircraft it took a plane to crash and people to die for them to find the fault and correct it the aerospace industry methodology is not as good as one would expect.

And the issues I’ve heard about have all been traced back to cost cutting to get something out the door to make a buck… It’s never been a case of a lack of technical ability in faults getting through verification, it’s shorter and shorter verification phases because of greed and the desire to make more money. Stuff can be fixed later… deaths, we’ll that’s for an actuary to cost…

Vehicles are becoming much more complex and with electric vehicles being the future they are going to get much more complex so for future vehicles the solution is a secure method of ota updating to address the problems quickly.

Yes, that is very true. Vehicles are becoming more complex and will become increasingly complex as we migrate to driverless systems. But at the moment, the greatest attack vectors seem to be wireless connectivity and the infotainment systems that have already seen vehicles being compromised (with brakes, throttle and steering already controllable by a remote actors).

It already isn't good on the vehicle security side… And secure OTA updates aren’t the solution to this problem. It’s physical segregation of the vehicle systems from the consumer crap that our vehicles are being loaded with and physical vehicle access for safety critical systems updates. But again that won’t change and OTA updates will be just as secure as UEFI on out PC’s isn’t…

The update systems can be designed so the updates are received, verified and stored locally and then performed while the vehicle is not in use.
When done properly ota updating is fine.
Recalls for software issues will not be necessary and quickly resolved.

OTA updates are simply a cost reduction solution to cheaply push out fixes for faulty software. And OTA updates usually piggy back off of connectivity provided via some subscription service people don’t really need (which is a win for the manufacturer). OTA has nothing to do with aiming for a level of fault free software development. In fact, because it makes fault fixing cheaper to push out, it changes the mindset and tends to reduce project management commitment to quality software. It’s bad…

I suspect the future mechanic is going to need some sort of electrical certification and some crazy tooling.

I suspect, ultimately, vehicles will become a subscription based business when you pay a monthly fee and your car is provided by the manufacturer who maintains it…

Me, it’s no secret I don’t like OTA updates. I prefer to be in control of the product I buy. I may not want the new “feature” the manufacturer rolls out which can cripple an old feature I do want (been there, no thanks). I prefer to be in control of when any update is installed on my property and as such I want clear docs on what the update fixes, removes or introduces. As such I don’t like modern updates which simply state “security/fault fix” and “improved user e experience” without any detailed change notes. Such shitfuckery is all too common these days..

People are having the wool pulled over their eyes and they don’t even know it So I feel like a lemming running with the crowd, but wha5 can you do other than laugh

 

[Immortality]

What is interesting is that this model car is the end of run model, these cars have been getting around in other parts of the world for many more years than what we had them as a "Commodore" so it seems odd that this problem has only become apparent now.

 

[Anthony121]

What is interesting is that this model car is the end of run model, these cars have been getting around in other parts of the world for many more years than what we had them as a "Commodore" so it seems odd that this problem has only become apparent now.

They have been recalled in the USA too. I thought the ZB came out around 2017 worldwide?

 

[wetwork65]

What is interesting is that this model car is the end of run model, these cars have been getting around in other parts of the world for many more years than what we had them as a "Commodore" so it seems odd that this problem has only become apparent now.

Maybe the change has been quietly carried out when the vehicles are serviced?
Having an orphaned servicing system in Australia/NZ and the attitude of the local servicing network prior to the closedown means that our local cars have not been corrected as a matter of course.
Let's just hope that they pull their finger out and correct this safety issue and it doesn't drag on like the Takata airbag fiasco and our VFs to name just two major failures that did not get resolved in a timely manner. There's many others, I know but the list of carmaker sh!tfcukery (thanks Skylarking for this description) is too long.

 

[stooge]

And the issues I’ve heard about have all been traced back to cost cutting to get something out the door to make a buck

the majority of the software issues in passenger aircraft were simply conditions that were not thought of during the development process.
the software on passenger aircraft goes through hundreds/thousands of hours worth of simulations and testing to be as robust as possible but sometimes things have and will slip through the cracks because with an aircraft you are dealing with an incredible amount of complexity along with the tripple redundancy systems modern aircraft have and that includes redundancy in the software too.
it is really not "cost saving" and more to do with something that is so complex you will never be able to predict every outcome.

OTA updates are simply a cost reduction solution to cheaply push out fixes for faulty software

ota updates are a simpler and quicker way of correcting issues missed during the development process and while it could save costs because it prevents the need for a physical return and update of the device.
just imagine if every time there was a problem found with your phone you would have to go to a dealer to get it repaired, the idea of ota was to streamline the update process to quickly address software issues and security vulnerabilities.
the quicker a zero day is patched the better

some of the most exploited systems on the internet are the ones where the consumer has disabled the ota update ability which is why you see so many companies these days removing the ability to disable the ota update process.

its not just software that suffers from issues after release, look at the mechanical side of things over the years where vehicles need recalls for mechanical problems, these may not be because of a cost saving measure but due to a defect on the production line.
a simple wire put in the wrong place or a tool not changed out enough etc, this sh!t happens all the time.

in pure software terms look at the gaming industry, i am sure you will have basic insight of the complexity of building a game particularly an online game like a mmorpg, these games usually take around 4 to 6 years to develop with both closed and open alpha, beta testing and yet without fail within the first few weeks of release exploits and bugs are found which require updates.
no amount of "time" will ever find all the bugs within complex software and if you have worked in software development you will know this, all one can do is do the best they can to find as much as they can and then release it and wait for the feedback.

i know what you are saying with cost cutting and yes that is always a factor because people want profit but it is not the only reason and it is not really faulty software because we can only find what we can.

for instance i recently developed a launcher for android tv devices because i got sick of the ads being forced on android tv, i tested the utter sh!t out of the app with multiple devices old and new, android api 17 through to 32, tv devices like the shield tv, chromecast, cheap chinese tv boxes, old phones, fold phones and even the android auto in the zb and everything was solid.
i released the app, people have purchased and all is well, no complaints and then one day i go to add a bluetooth controller in the shield tv and when i back out of the settings it duplicated all of the tiles on the launchers home screen... "fcuk" i go lol now i have to locate the issue and do an update.
this issue was not because i was trying to save cost or i did not test the app, it was because it took the condition of adding a bluetooth device to cause an app modified event on the android broadcast system that i was not expecting which caused my app to load the tiles again and this is what i mean by conditional bugs, i would never have thought that connecting a controller would trigger an app modified event and imo it shouldnt but it does and that is probably a bug with android.

i totally understand your concern too, the idea of a vehicle that can be manipulated via the internet does not sit well but with software development as it is could you imagine needing to take your "future" vehicle to the dealer every time there is an issue.
they could setup a manual update system where you the consumer download the fix to say a usb stick and apply it yourself but then what about the computer illiterate people or the ones that just have no interest in their vehicle apart from a to b, they could be driving with critical issues unpatched and again there is no way a manufacturer is going to find every flaw before release so what is the only option for the masses moving forward?
it has to be ota updates or recalls forcing people to return to dealer.
maybe an opt in option for ota but if you dont opt in you have to visit a dealer but even then there are/were still vehicles with the takata airbags on the roads years after the recall which demonstrates that people dont even pay attention to recalls.

 

[VS 5.0]

I have no problem with ota updates that result in improvements (unintended issues aside).

The problem I have with them is the manufacturer removing functionality or changing to payment required to retain certain existing functions.

 

[stooge]

changing to payment required to retain certain existing functions.

that will be a thing of the future

BMW starts selling heated seat subscriptions for $18 a month

Now being sold in South Korea, the UK, and elsewhere

www.theverge.com

Audi infotainment system informs owners of unpaid options

A car owner recently posted a video showing that this philosophy could be bleeding over into the automotive industry. On the r/mildlyinfuriating subreddit, the user posted a...

www.techspot.com

What is Tesla Premium Connectivity and What's included

We share all the details about Tesla's Premium Connectivity. Everything that is included and everything that is not. Find out more about how you can use your ph

www.notateslaapp.com

Toyota to charge US owners $8 per month for remote start ability

A free trial will make way for a pay-to-use subscription

www.whichcar.com.au

it starts off small and then they all jump on the train and soon people will be subscribing to all sorts of functions of a vehicle.

 

[bradp51]

the majority of the software issues in passenger aircraft were simply conditions that were not thought of during the development process.
the software on passenger aircraft goes through hundreds/thousands of hours worth of simulations and testing to be as robust as possible but sometimes things have and will slip through the cracks because with an aircraft you are dealing with an incredible amount of complexity along with the tripple redundancy systems modern aircraft have and that includes redundancy in the software too.
it is really not "cost saving" and more to do with something that is so complex you will never be able to predict every outcome.



ota updates are a simpler and quicker way of correcting issues missed during the development process and while it could save costs because it prevents the need for a physical return and update of the device.
just imagine if every time there was a problem found with your phone you would have to go to a dealer to get it repaired, the idea of ota was to streamline the update process to quickly address software issues and security vulnerabilities.
the quicker a zero day is patched the better

some of the most exploited systems on the internet are the ones where the consumer has disabled the ota update ability which is why you see so many companies these days removing the ability to disable the ota update process.

its not just software that suffers from issues after release, look at the mechanical side of things over the years where vehicles need recalls for mechanical problems, these may not be because of a cost saving measure but due to a defect on the production line.
a simple wire put in the wrong place or a tool not changed out enough etc, this sh!t happens all the time.

in pure software terms look at the gaming industry, i am sure you will have basic insight of the complexity of building a game particularly an online game like a mmorpg, these games usually take around 4 to 6 years to develop with both closed and open alpha, beta testing and yet without fail within the first few weeks of release exploits and bugs are found which require updates.
no amount of "time" will ever find all the bugs within complex software and if you have worked in software development you will know this, all one can do is do the best they can to find as much as they can and then release it and wait for the feedback.

i know what you are saying with cost cutting and yes that is always a factor because people want profit but it is not the only reason and it is not really faulty software because we can only find what we can.

for instance i recently developed a launcher for android tv devices because i got sick of the ads being forced on android tv, i tested the utter sh!t out of the app with multiple devices old and new, android api 17 through to 32, tv devices like the shield tv, chromecast, cheap chinese tv boxes, old phones, fold phones and even the android auto in the zb and everything was solid.
i released the app, people have purchased and all is well, no complaints and then one day i go to add a bluetooth controller in the shield tv and when i back out of the settings it duplicated all of the tiles on the launchers home screen... "fcuk" i go lol now i have to locate the issue and do an update.
this issue was not because i was trying to save cost or i did not test the app, it was because it took the condition of adding a bluetooth device to cause an app modified event on the android broadcast system that i was not expecting which caused my app to load the tiles again and this is what i mean by conditional bugs, i would never have thought that connecting a controller would trigger an app modified event and imo it shouldnt but it does and that is probably a bug with android.

i totally understand your concern too, the idea of a vehicle that can be manipulated via the internet does not sit well but with software development as it is could you imagine needing to take your "future" vehicle to the dealer every time there is an issue.
they could setup a manual update system where you the consumer download the fix to say a usb stick and apply it yourself but then what about the computer illiterate people or the ones that just have no interest in their vehicle apart from a to b, they could be driving with critical issues unpatched and again there is no way a manufacturer is going to find every flaw before release so what is the only option for the masses moving forward?
it has to be ota updates or recalls forcing people to return to dealer.
maybe an opt in option for ota but if you dont opt in you have to visit a dealer but even then there are/were still vehicles with the takata airbags on the roads years after the recall.

A good read