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My HSV Clubsport

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chrisp

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That's what I thought, so then how does the fuel get sucked into the canister with the engine running? I was of the understanding it can trickle in over a period with the engine shut off, but not really with the engine running. Or can it be sucked through into the canister from the tank with the engine running?

Overfilling the tank, and if the charcoal canister is located lower than the fuel filler. The ‘vapour’ tube from the fuel tank will be at a high point in the fuel tank. But if you brim the tank right up to the height of the filler opening, you may be pushing fuel in to the charcoal canister. The charcoal canister usually only has fumes in it, but overfill and you may get liquid fuel in to it.

I don’t mind what you (or VC) do, do whatever you want. You are free to do whatever you like. But, and it’s a big ‘but’, don’t try to pass it off as some urban myth or something to justify your decision. Every car manufacturer will state in their owner’s manuals not to overfill. But manufacturers rarely offer any explanations as to why they offer those recommendations (torque specs, non-reuse of fasteners, etc.). It’s up to you to decide whether or not to do so. If you think it is harmless or of no consequence, then the burden of proof is on you to prove that the manufacturer’s advice is wrong or not applicable - good luck! :)
 

vc commodore

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Overfilling the tank, and if the charcoal canister is located lower than the fuel filler. The ‘vapour’ tube from the fuel tank will be at a high point in the fuel tank. But if you brim the tank right up to the height of the filler opening, you may be pushing fuel in to the charcoal canister. The charcoal canister usually only has fumes in it, but overfill and you may get liquid fuel in to it.

I don’t mind what you (or VC) do, do whatever you want. You are free to do whatever you like. But, and it’s a big ‘but’, don’t try to pass it off as some urban myth or something to justify your decision. Every car manufacturer will state in their owner’s manuals not to overfill. But manufacturers rarely offer any explanations as to why they offer those recommendations (torque specs, non-reuse of fasteners, etc.). It’s up to you to decide whether or not to do so. If you think it is harmless or of no consequence, then the burden of proof is on you to prove that the manufacturer’s advice is wrong or not applicable - good luck! :)

Well, there's my problem....Don't have the manuals for either car....

I'll add in, the charcol cannister for the VC was located in the engine bay, just behind the right hand headlight.....So I think it's above the fuel filler line
 

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Faarrkk! I'm sorry I offered the advice about not overfilling one’s petrol tank:)
I experienced a problem myself after filling my tank to the brim once. The car ran like sh1t for about three kilometres before coming good again. I was caravaning in Tassie at the time. I googled it a couple of years ago and read all the reasons why you shouldn't overfill your tank. It sort of made sense to me having experienced what I had. So yeah.
 

losh1971

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I'll probably do it again against the advice. I plan another trip to Adelaide sometime in the next 2-3 years. Probably do it twice on my trip too, once there and once back.

Don't plan on doing any other time soon. Its been a while since I've filled the ute anymore than 3/4. I only put in enough petrol to see me through the fortnight now and no longer go through a full tank plus some each fortnight, since owning bike. I was going through over 50 litres a week at one point.
 

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I'll probably do it again against the advice. I plan another trip to Adelaide sometime in the next 2-3 years. Probably do it twice on my trip too, once there and once back.

Don't plan on doing any other time soon. Its been a while since I've filled the ute anymore than 3/4. I only put in enough petrol to see me through the fortnight now and no longer go through a full tank plus some each fortnight, since owning bike. I was going through over 50 litres a week at one point.
To reitterate the wording from the owner manual for the VF, page 233, I'm sure VE is the same..

Always fill the tank at the intermediate or fast fill rate. Do not add any more fuel after the fuel filler first clicks off or fuel blow back. This allows room for the fuel to expand inside the tank.
Only trickle-fill tanks when the vehicle is to be driven for more than 50kms after the tank is filled. However this is not recommended on days above 30C.

Modern fuel systems are seal system built with the aim of reducing air pollution. As fuel expands due to heat, the tank must not be filled beyond a specific amount, so as to be able to accommodate fuel expansion. The bowser fuel hose trigger auto cut would be calibrated to ensure that fuel flow would stop once a specific back pressure is reached, which the vehicle's fuel tank designers would ensure actually occurs before the space reserved for fuel expansion is breached. I'm sure lots of thought goes into this system.

As fuel vapour can't be released into the atmosphere directly, there is a charcoal canister that is connected to the fuel tank and is used to absorb such vapours before the fuel free vapour exits the sealed system. During engine operation, the engine electronics opens a purge valve so outside fresh air can be drawn into the canister and further into the engine, thus removing the absorbed fuel vapour from the charcoal. The electronics is smart enough to measure tank pressure and other such parameters related to the sealed fuel system's correct operation and light up a check engine lamp is something doesn't work as it is supposed to. The check engine light is often called the money light for a reason :p

Overfilling the tank can result in reducing or fully removing the space that is "reserved" for fuel expansion. The problem then becomes one, where fuel expansion due to heat, will force fuel to be ejected into the line that goes to the charcoal canister filling it up with liquid and potentially even eject it out the canisters air line if pressure is high enough... This can occur even if the canister is above the tank filler neck as the flow is driven by the pressure of the expanding fuel, not by gravity :oops:

The real question is what damage can result from having fuel in the charcoal canister. I have no idea what the real answer is but I've read that the fuel can degrade the charcoal (sack?) and send granules through the system blocking solenoids and such. But being modern cars being a PITA to diagnose, in part because of their complexity and in part because mechanics either don't know, don't have time, can make more money doing oil changes, etc... the problem becomes one where you may have a check engine lamp shining its light, one that will cost to have investigated while hoping the "guy" isn't a "parts cannon" guy :rolleyes:

Why don't we see lots of problems with fuel tank evap systems? May be it's because many drivers don't try and squeeze every drop into the tank, may be it's because many who do drive around 20km after a fill which uses 2litres of their overfill, or may be it's because some who have actually had issues don't really care much about getting their car sorted and begrudgingly drive around with the money light on...

Who knows the answers but if the manufacture states not to overfill the tank, and pump triggers are calibrated devices, I'd tend to head their statements else higher repair costs may occur down the line. (and I'd rather have some compressible air sapce witin the tank to avoid the fireball eruptions if someone high speed rear ends me while I'm turning left :p )

YMMV
 

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To reitterate the wording from the owner manual for the VF, page 233, I'm sure VE is the same..

Always fill the tank at the intermediate or fast fill rate. Do not add any more fuel after the fuel filler first clicks off or fuel blow back. This allows room for the fuel to expand inside the tank.
Only trickle-fill tanks when the vehicle is to be driven for more than 50kms after the tank is filled. However this is not recommended on days above 30C.

Modern fuel systems are seal system built with the aim of reducing air pollution. As fuel expands due to heat, the tank must not be filled beyond a specific amount, so as to be able to accommodate fuel expansion. The bowser fuel hose trigger auto cut would be calibrated to ensure that fuel flow would stop once a specific back pressure is reached, which the vehicle's fuel tank designers would ensure actually occurs before the space reserved for fuel expansion is breached. I'm sure lots of thought goes into this system.

As fuel vapour can't be released into the atmosphere directly, there is a charcoal canister that is connected to the fuel tank and is used to absorb such vapours before the fuel free vapour exits the sealed system. During engine operation, the engine electronics opens a purge valve so outside fresh air can be drawn into the canister and further into the engine, thus removing the absorbed fuel vapour from the charcoal. The electronics is smart enough to measure tank pressure and other such parameters related to the sealed fuel system's correct operation and light up a check engine lamp is something doesn't work as it is supposed to. The check engine light is often called the money light for a reason :p

Overfilling the tank can result in reducing or fully removing the space that is "reserved" for fuel expansion. The problem then becomes one, where fuel expansion due to heat, will force fuel to be ejected into the line that goes to the charcoal canister filling it up with liquid and potentially even eject it out the canisters air line if pressure is high enough... This can occur even if the canister is above the tank filler neck as the flow is driven by the pressure of the expanding fuel, not by gravity :oops:

The real question is what damage can result from having fuel in the charcoal canister. I have no idea what the real answer is but I've read that the fuel can degrade the charcoal (sack?) and send granules through the system blocking solenoids and such. But being modern cars being a PITA to diagnose, in part because of their complexity and in part because mechanics either don't know, don't have time, can make more money doing oil changes, etc... the problem becomes one where you may have a check engine lamp shining its light, one that will cost to have investigated while hoping the "guy" isn't a "parts cannon" guy :rolleyes:

Why don't we see lots of problems with fuel tank evap systems? May be it's because many drivers don't try and squeeze every drop into the tank, may be it's because many who do drive around 20km after a fill which uses 2litres of their overfill, or may be it's because some who have actually had issues don't really care much about getting their car sorted and begrudgingly drive around with the money light on...

Who knows the answers but if the manufacture states not to overfill the tank, and pump triggers are calibrated devices, I'd tend to head their statements else higher repair costs may occur down the line. (and I'd rather have some compressible air sapce witin the tank to avoid the fireball eruptions if someone high speed rear ends me while I'm turning left :p )

YMMV

Vehicle manufacturers spend millions of dollars on R&D and engineering.

A bloke in a shed in Tas knows better.

Discuss.
 

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losh1971

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To reitterate the wording from the owner manual for the VF, page 233, I'm sure VE is the same..

Only trickle-fill tanks when the vehicle is to be driven for more than 50kms after the tank is filled. However this is not recommended on days above 30C.
I rest my case. That is interesting, it would seem that what I do is within the guidelines of what the manual states.

Feel free to send me your likes for doing it within what GM says, or is it a case of.....?
1716272363440.png
 
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chrisp

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To reitterate the wording from the owner manual for the VF, page 233, I'm sure VE is the same..

Always fill the tank at the intermediate or fast fill rate. Do not add any more fuel after the fuel filler first clicks off or fuel blow back. This allows room for the fuel to expand inside the tank.
Only trickle-fill tanks when the vehicle is to be driven for more than 50kms after the tank is filled. However this is not recommended on days above 30C.

Modern fuel systems are seal system built with the aim of reducing air pollution. As fuel expands due to heat, the tank must not be filled beyond a specific amount, so as to be able to accommodate fuel expansion. The bowser fuel hose trigger auto cut would be calibrated to ensure that fuel flow would stop once a specific back pressure is reached, which the vehicle's fuel tank designers would ensure actually occurs before the space reserved for fuel expansion is breached. I'm sure lots of thought goes into this system.

As fuel vapour can't be released into the atmosphere directly, there is a charcoal canister that is connected to the fuel tank and is used to absorb such vapours before the fuel free vapour exits the sealed system. During engine operation, the engine electronics opens a purge valve so outside fresh air can be drawn into the canister and further into the engine, thus removing the absorbed fuel vapour from the charcoal. The electronics is smart enough to measure tank pressure and other such parameters related to the sealed fuel system's correct operation and light up a check engine lamp is something doesn't work as it is supposed to. The check engine light is often called the money light for a reason :p

Overfilling the tank can result in reducing or fully removing the space that is "reserved" for fuel expansion. The problem then becomes one, where fuel expansion due to heat, will force fuel to be ejected into the line that goes to the charcoal canister filling it up with liquid and potentially even eject it out the canisters air line if pressure is high enough... This can occur even if the canister is above the tank filler neck as the flow is driven by the pressure of the expanding fuel, not by gravity :oops:

The real question is what damage can result from having fuel in the charcoal canister. I have no idea what the real answer is but I've read that the fuel can degrade the charcoal (sack?) and send granules through the system blocking solenoids and such. But being modern cars being a PITA to diagnose, in part because of their complexity and in part because mechanics either don't know, don't have time, can make more money doing oil changes, etc... the problem becomes one where you may have a check engine lamp shining its light, one that will cost to have investigated while hoping the "guy" isn't a "parts cannon" guy :rolleyes:

Why don't we see lots of problems with fuel tank evap systems? May be it's because many drivers don't try and squeeze every drop into the tank, may be it's because many who do drive around 20km after a fill which uses 2litres of their overfill, or may be it's because some who have actually had issues don't really care much about getting their car sorted and begrudgingly drive around with the money light on...

Who knows the answers but if the manufacture states not to overfill the tank, and pump triggers are calibrated devices, I'd tend to head their statements else higher repair costs may occur down the line. (and I'd rather have some compressible air sapce witin the tank to avoid the fireball eruptions if someone high speed rear ends me while I'm turning left :p )

YMMV

I do recall, many years ago, a friend asked me to have a look at their car, a V6 AlloyTec Commodore. She was a very switched on driver and she had noticed a slight and brief hesitation soon after the car warmed up. The service place she went to had no idea after checking all the usual suspects. I was puzzled too and couldn’t offer any help at the time. But someone posted a similar issue (probably on this forum?) and the solution. A faulty purge valve.

I had a V6 ecotec and I would often notice a very small and subtle hesitation occasionally. It seemed to happen on the same bit of road every time. That bit of road had a small bump in it. I was suspecting a mechanical issue of something being loose. I eventually found the culprit. It was the EGR valve. Replacing it totally resolved the issue.

I don’t think the EVAP system faults will cause major issues, but they can cause small annoying issues that seem to be hard to find and diagnose.
 
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