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silly efi return line question ; )

mikeman101

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hi!!!!!

ok got afew questions for the efi people out there....

regarding a 3.3 12 port currently undergoing an efi conversion

question 1. were abouts in the fuel line do i install the fuel pump ?
2. were the fuel rail meets the return line can i run this to my mechanical fuel pump to help
push the fuel back to the tank
3.what fuel pump is recommended vn or vl ?
4. i have 3.8v6 injectors here...is it worth putting them in ...or keep with the standard 1ns ?

Thanks : ) ill let ya's know how i get on in the next few days and post some more issues : /
 

mikeman101

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can some one let me know how and were the auxillary air valve should be mounted and wea the connections go
 

Cheap6

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1. The pump should be mounted close to the tank. They don't much like to suck fuel, just push it. Easiest to use a VK/VL/VN V8 mounting bracket. You will also need a tank that has a "swirl pot" in it +/or a low pressure feed pump +/or an external swirl pot to get fuel to the EFI pump inlet. If it's in a VK. there's no need to reinvent the wheel; you can use the EFI VK tank and pumps, a VL tank and pumps or, with reference to the recent thread, a VN-VR tank and pump (note the singular for the pump, applicable to VN-VR other than VN V8). Later than Series I VP have the return line in the sender which is better because the spigot for the return line tends to get broken off the earlier tanks.

2. There's no need to provide any assistance to the fuel return and while the pressure regulator could still work effectively with doing that, it may not.

3. Referring specifically to the external VN V8, VL (and VK) pumps: The problem is there's no such thing as a 'VL' or 'VN' pump. Within the same external package there are a number of pumps. To a great extent they are interchangeable and parts retailers prefer to keep a single pump that can cover a variety of applications. Bosch makes available online a catalogue with fuel pump flow ratings at standardised pressure. You might like to reference that for flow ratings.

Using the VN-VR tank means only a single pump is needed and it's in the tank. A VN-VR V8 puts out from 165kW to 215kW (HSV - so maybe upgraded pump). Realistically, even S/C, how much power do you think you are going to get out of your 3.3? If the pump will meet the fuel flow rate of a factory engine at your anticipated power output and an allowance for operating against boost pressure, it will be OK.

If you want to do some ballpark figures as a check: petrol density is ~760g/l = 0.76kg/l, energy content is ~43MJ/kg, thermal efficiency is likely to be around 25-30% (lower when you have to drive a S/C, so use maybe closer to 20% or a guess on S/C power consumption as below), 1MJ = 1000kJ, 1kW = 1kJ/sec. From that you can estimate the fuel flow rate required to met a particular (anticipated) power output.

eg. 150kW = 150 kJ/s = 25% x 43MJ/kg x 1000kJ/MJ x 0.76kg/l x 'X' l/s and solve for 'X'.

'X' l/s= (150kJ/s)/(0.25 x 43MJ/kg x 1000kJ/MJ x 0.76kg/l)

= 0.0184l/s

x 60s/min = 1.1l/min

Add in a margin for error for fuel enrichment (you can factor that in explicitly if you want to; use 1/Lambda or use a nominal stoichiometric 14.7:1 divided by a typical air:fuel ratio, say 12:1) and flow losses in the lines etc., say a factor of 2 or 3, and you have the required flow rate for a naturally aspirated engine.

The S/C draws power which has to come from the engine (which you will have to provide fuel for but will never see at the flywheel). Calculating that is possible but might be something like 20kW at a realistic boost pressure so add that onto your anticipated power output.

That you are running boost will affect the flow rate of a particular pump. The relationship is non-linear; a square function. Doubling the fuel flow rate requires 4 times (= 2 squared) the pressure; double the pressure and the fuel flow rate increases by only 1.4 x (= the square root of 2). So, the capability of the pumps to provide flow diminishes with pressure above the rated pressure. Use Bernoulli to get a rough estimate of how. I'll let you look that up online. You can ignore the static and friction head terms and just equate the pressure and flow rate terms: low, rated, pressure to the new, high, pressure with boost.

You can, and should, check your actual fuel flow by measuring the fuel flow out of the regulator with the engine off, with, if you're running boost, the pressure on the fuel pressure regulator reference hose (normally connected to the manifold) increased to whatever boost pressure you will be running. A big ass medical syringe pushed into the manifold hose works but you'll need to measure the fuel pressure - best, provided you know the reg. pressure, typ. 250kPa above manifold pressure but easily measured as a check - or air pressure in the hose.

4. The rated flow of injectors is likewise provided by Bosch in their catalogues. You know your required fuel flow rate from above (without the arbitrary "factor of 2 or 3" but with the fuel enrichment consideration). Simple maths: 6 x "rated fuel flow rate". It's a general guide to keep injector duty cycles below 80% so x 0.8. (The pressure difference across the injectors is constant due to the fuel pressure regulator referenced against manifold pressure so there's no need to allow for extra pressure with boost.)

You might also want to check what your engine management system needs wrt injector impedance. There are two types: high, typically 12-16 ohms when measured with an Ohmmeter, low, maybe 1-3 Ohms. They are not interchangeable. VN are high, VK?? but also probably high.
 
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mikeman101

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THANK YOU !! massive help, i will do my maths as soon as ive got a spare minute.... about the swirl pot ... is this 100% needed ? i really dont want to change tanks so could you give me a basic run down on were the pot needs to be mounted .thanks heaps

i just realised i may have had the plugs in wrong... i had the auxillary air plug hooked into the temp sensor and vice versa ..... easy mistake to make as the temp sensor plug has no chance in hell of reaching the temp sensor... so i will sort that out tomorro by moving the temp sensor .... also is there any way of checking if my injectors and computer are working without running fuel through the injectors ?

engine is a 3.3 12 port carby getting converted to efi vehicle is a vk factory for 4cyl but has had a 6 in it for around 20 years now
 
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Cheap6

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You do need a swirl pot somewhere ahead of the high pressure pump. Actually, more accurately, you need to ensure that there is a constant supply of fuel to the inlet of the high pressure fuel pump. I have tried to run the VK/VL/VN style pumps without a swirl pot and they die very quickly - I am not alone in that; others have also tried to do so with the same results. In addition, if there is not a continuous supply of fuel to the pump, say while cornering, the fuel pressure drops and you get a momentary lean condition. If you are fabricating one, tall skinny swirl pots are better than short fat ones for the same volume.

Because the pumps don't like to pull fuel, the swirl pot needs to be close to the high pressure pump inlet, with the level of the fuel in the swirl pot well above the HP pump inlet level. If you don't want to use one of the factory EFI tanks/fuel systems you can mount an external swirl pot and pump pretty much wherever you can find the real estate to do so. On one car (not Commodore) I had a low pressure pump at the tank - you might use your mechanical fuel pump to the same purpose - feeding a swirl pot mounted on the firewall with the high pressure pump mounted just underneath it. I don't think I would do that again but it worked perfectly well (still does AFAIK.)

If you plumb the fuel return from the injectors into the swirl pot rather than back to the tank (and some fuel cooling/heat protection), the "lift pump" (low pressure) can be lower flowing than the absolute fuel requirement provided you don't sit at max. power/fuel flow for longer than required to empty the swirl pot due to the difference in the feed and pressure fuel flow rates.

If you do end up with the pump and swirl pot in the engine bay, you should consider heat (maybe shielding) and mount it so as to be protected (or provide some additionally) in an impact. I think under the car, in front of the fuel tank, is better if there's space. (Consider suspension travel etc. too.) I prefer not to mount it in the boot for utility and safety but plenty of other people do.

I understand that you don't want to do so, but swapping the tank and using one of the factory systems - I would use the VP Series II-VR tank and pump - is going to be easier and cheaper than designing and fabricating or buying a system (unless you simply want the challenge and to have something unique for its own sake.)
 

mikeman101

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thank you cheap6 you are a great help !! ill shall post some pictures of progress in the next few days
 

Cheap6

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Re. checking. Injectors are fine to operate without fuel flowing through them. There were (are?) quite a few LPG conversions where the fuel pump is disabled and the injectors left to fire empty on LPG.

If you are really keen on testing, I've seen bench testing done with a distributor driven by an electric motor (eg. a drill motor) to get an ignition signal. I'm not sure how you'd go with the EST on a VK.
 

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hey cheap6 could you confirm if these plugs are in the correct place ? cheers mike
temp sensor
296621_10151209371499122_2040233460_n.jpg

aux air sensor
424633_10151209371539122_1066455555_n.jpg
 

Cheap6

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hey cheap6 could you confirm if these plugs are in the correct place ? cheers mike
temp sensor

Unfortunately no. What may help is that I think the coolant temperature sensor should have 5V across the two connector terminals and the air control valve should have battery Voltage across the two connector terminals.
 
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