EFI/Memcal Tuning Questions from new user

[thestig]

Hi ppl,

I am new to both EFI tuning and "justcommodores.com.au". Having read through numerous posts on this site, I figured this might be the place to ask about my impending memcal tuning project(s).

I recently ordered an EEPROM programmer, some EEPROMS and a MEMCAL header from moats.net, as well as a G-Tech Pro RR from Tesla Electronics.

The reasons for this are twofold:

1. We will be having a shot at tuning Reaper's new "Black" SS.
See: http://forums.justcommodores.com.au/vn-vp-vg-vq/66910-reapers-black-vp-ss.html

and

2. I have a VP V6 Calais with T5 conversion and Pacemaker Competition Headers (PH-5029), which I am just about to fit with an intercooled CRS 12 PSI version of the SC14 (12 PSI tested at CRS), Bosch Injectors (from 5.7 Litre, Not LS1), 2 Bar MAP sensor, and a high pressure fuel pump (425 kPa as opposed to 300 kPa standard).​

I have downloaded and installed Tuner Pro RT, along with the definition file for the 1227808 bins. I have also all of the 1227808 bin images from the moats.net file archive (see list below). I have had a bit of a play around with the program and feel that it shouldn't be a problem for me to use.

AFTX7330 89, 3.8L V6 Auto & Man Cancelled, Backfires - Do not use.
AFTZ9887 89, 5.0L V8 Auto First Production Release
AFUA0966 89, 5.0L V8 Man First Production Release
AMBX???? 88, 5.0L V8 Man From VL (87) 'Group A', not a VN release
APNX1687 88, 3.8L V6 Auto & Man Production Run Change, Backfire fix
ARBP4435 89, 3.8L V6 Auto HSV, SV3800
ARHS6587 89, 5.0L V8 Auto & Man For New Zealand
ASBX9285 89, 5.0L V8 Auto Production Release
ATFL4424 89, 5.0L V8 Auto HSV, SV5000 Update
ATFY4410 89, 3.8L V6 Auto & Man Production Run Change for 1990 Eng
ATJN???? 89, 5.0L V8 Auto & Man HSV, SV89 Production Release
AWMP6146 90, 5.0L V8 Auto Service Fix for Surge
AXFW???? 88, 3.8L V6 Auto Service fix for Idle, 1988/89 Eng
BBPA???? 92, 5.0L V8 Man Production 92mdl V8​

Being new to all this I have a number of questions.

1. Does anyone know of any other sources of bin images, stock or otherwise, for use with the 5.0 Litre V8 or the 3.8 Litre V6? (For example: AXFY0848 $B1 90, 5.0L V8 Man VN 'Group A' SS, Production Release).

2. Is it a good idea to source a 1227165 ECU from the states in order to allow ALDL baud rates of 8192? Will it be useful to have the higher baud rate during testing?

3. What wideband 02 sensor/controller is recommended? Is there something that is readily available, not too expensive, yet will allow us to avoid turning our engines into a pile of molten metal?

4. Given the modifications that my V6 is undergoing, which bin image would be a good starting point, and what should I do to the fuel map before cranking it over? Given that I could expect 10 to 11 PSI of boost should I increase the fuel volume accordingly? ie Increase WOT fueling by a ratio of 24:14, and smooth the curve out back down to normal around idle.

5. I always run my VP on V-Power Racing from Shell (100 RON). What is a good starting point for spark advance? This is also pertinant in the case of the 5.0 Ltr SS. I also note a lot of people recommend removing/disabling the knock sensor, this sounds a little suicidal to me.

6. In regard to the injectors, the Bosch 0280150775 is rated at 196cc per minute under a test pressure of 330 kPa. How can I estimate the flow rate at 425 kPa? Do I need to? Or will the fuel pressure regulator bring the Pressue back down to around the stock level?

7. Can anyone recommend books on the subject of EFI tuning? I have purchased from amazon.com the following books and am eagerly awaiting their arrival. Has anyone read them and would care to comment on their usefulness?

"How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems" By Jeff Hartman
Amazon.com: How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems (Motorbooks Workshop): Books: Jeff Hartman

"Engine Management: Advanced Tuning" By Greg Banish
Amazon.com: How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems (Motorbooks Workshop): Books: Jeff Hartman​

8. Does anyone have a 3.8 Litre V6 motor (preferably out of a VP) they want to sell cheap? I would like to start a rebuild before I launch miscellaneous parts of my existing V6 through the crank case, exhaust ports etc.

Any responses are greatly appreciated.

L8r

 

[PaRaDoX]

ive learnt that anything over 28 sparks at map 90-100, 4500-6000rpm will not gain much if anything just cause pre ignition...

ive got

ASBX
ATJN
SV5000 tune
Group A

best starting point for a stocker would be ATJN as the group A ran a diffrent offset tune(requires a diffrent XDF) greenfoam has alot of tuning binaries and XDF's hes the man you need to speak to....

im running a modified SV5000 tune (sv5000 has a 268 cam mine has a 276)

gtech is great for testing if tunes made it faster, BUT ive found rarely accurate when compared to time slips but very accurate within them self. remember always to use teh same strech of road

anyway, for starters use the ATJN tune (180kw VP HSV) and modify that, you can disable the knock sensor or simply add a knock sensor to the car.. dont forget to check the base spark first


ok now onto V6 suff the fuel pressure reg will limit fuel pressure therefore you need to find out how much they will flow @ 40psi... 196cc is way too small for 11psi
you need ATLEAST 32LB/hr for anywhere near that boost. otherwise it will lean out under boost, there is a condition called KINJFLOW, flowrate = Volumetric Efficiency X kINJFLOW but there are other conditions that can come into play but overall thats the main jist of it...

your main issue is your engine needs to read the boost. the delco map sensor will only read upto atmohpsheric pressure, you need yourself a 2 bar map sensor then a definition file to go with that as the values change

you can pick up a wideband kit for $300 with a gauge, i reccomend it because this will help you tune it on the street, anyway on boost pull all the sparks initially till the AFR's are right, i ran 15 deg of advance on boost to be safe, when i tuned mine i started rich and leaned it off till it was right this worked for me.. i never got to crank the spark up under boost but once the air fuels are right then you can worry about power making!

 

[Immortality]

there is a 2bar tune floating around for the V6, a lot of people who have been doing turbo conversions have used it. again greenfoam is probably the person to talk to.

there are also a few V6 tuning threads in the modifying V6 section (do a search) which have info for calculating KINJFLOW (injector flow rates)

https://forums.justcommodores.com.au/threads/memcal-socket-install.19577
https://forums.justcommodores.com.au/threads/2-3-bar-tune-58-808-ecu.59029
https://forums.justcommodores.com.au/threads/vns1-memcal-vps2-o-m-g.53510
https://forums.justcommodores.com.au/threads/another-vn-v6-turbo-project-thread.47028

some light reading, but a lot of info there on things that have/haven't worked etc

 

[Reaper]

ive learnt that anything over 28 sparks at map 90-100, 4500-6000rpm will not gain much if anything just cause pre ignition...

ive got

ASBX
ATJN
SV5000 tune
Group A

best starting point for a stocker would be ATJN as the group A ran a diffrent offset tune(requires a diffrent XDF) greenfoam has alot of tuning binaries and XDF's hes the man you need to speak to....

Wasn't sure about the GPA but lately I was looking at starting with the SV5000. Bad idea till I do the cam/compression/heads? I'm in two minds about the knock sensor. Some think it is mandatory whilst others say they are rubbish (and everything in between). Right now I'm thinking no as I can run the thing on 98 and keep an ear out for pinging. I'm not planning on anything wild for quite a while till I build up a better understanding of the whole thing.

im running a modified SV5000 tune (sv5000 has a 268 cam mine has a 276)

gtech is great for testing if tunes made it faster, BUT ive found rarely accurate when compared to time slips but very accurate within them self. remember always to use teh same strech of road

G-Tech is on it's way. I'm not interested in drag racing - more into building a track car with number plates. The G-Tech is the most objective way of measuring what I do that is accessible.

anyway, for starters use the ATJN tune (180kw VP HSV) and modify that, you can disable the knock sensor or simply add a knock sensor to the car.. dont forget to check the base spark first
!

Cool. Thanks for the tips. Done a lot of reading of late and no doubt there is a ****load more to come!

Reaper

 

[greenfoam]

2. I have a VP V6 Calais with T5 conversion and Pacemaker Competition Headers (PH-5029), which I am just about to fit with an intercooled CRS 12 PSI version of the SC14 (12 PSI tested at CRS), Bosch Injectors (from 5.7 Litre, Not LS1), 2 Bar MAP sensor, and a high pressure fuel pump (425 kPa as opposed to 300 kPa standard).

You will use the 2 bar $5D xdf for this, pretty easy really once you got the base tune worked out, You might need bigger injectors than the blue tops


1. Does anyone know of any other sources of bin images, stock or otherwise, for use with the 5.0 Litre V8 or the 3.8 Litre V6? (For example: AXFY0848 $B1 90, 5.0L V8 Man VN 'Group A' SS, Production Release).

I have this

2. Is it a good idea to source a 1227165 ECU from the states in order to allow ALDL baud rates of 8192? Will it be useful to have the higher baud rate during testing?

Yep get one of those and use EFI live

3. What wideband 02 sensor/controller is recommended? Is there something that is readily available, not too expensive, yet will allow us to avoid turning our engines into a pile of molten metal?

Yep there is a good cheap one that runs off USB and software I'll get you the name next time I see my mate that has one

4. Given the modifications that my V6 is undergoing, which bin image would be a good starting point, and what should I do to the fuel map before cranking it over? Given that I could expect 10 to 11 PSI of boost should I increase the fuel volume accordingly? ie Increase WOT fueling by a ratio of 24:14, and smooth the curve out back down to normal around idle.

I have a base tune that will work I'll help you out later

5. I always run my VP on V-Power Racing from Shell (100 RON). What is a good starting point for spark advance? This is also pertinant in the case of the 5.0 Ltr SS. I also note a lot of people recommend removing/disabling the knock sensor, this sounds a little suicidal to me.

With no cooler 14 degrees, with a cooler full timing, you don't need a knock sensor, if you have skillz if not then better use one. On good fuel 29 degrees at 4800 for the 5 litre and work up from there

6. In regard to the injectors, the Bosch 0280150775 is rated at 196cc per minute under a test pressure of 330 kPa. How can I estimate the flow rate at 425 kPa? Do I need to? Or will the fuel pressure regulator bring the Pressue back down to around the stock level?

7. Can anyone recommend books on the subject of EFI tuning? I have purchased from amazon.com the following books and am eagerly awaiting their arrival. Has anyone read them and would care to comment on their usefulness?

I only read the internet

 

[thestig]

Blue Tops

Thanks for your replies ppl. They have certainly been helpful. :thumbsup:

Have done some more research on the injectors. I am finding conflicting information about the blue top (Bosch 02980150775) injector.

Some sources quote the flow rate at 196cc, others at 248cc, both rates claim to be measured around 3bar. Does anyone have concrete information on the flow rate of these injectors. I am inclined to believe the 248cc/min (23.6lb/hr) figure which is more than the stock v6 injector, the 196cc/min (18.6lb/hr) figure is not .

L8r

 

[greenfoam]

They are about 24lb, You car will be putting out around 200rwkw and Im not to sure the blue tops are going to be able to give you a safe 11.5:1 or richer ratio at that power, you can only try and see I guess. VN luke and I used to do endless sums on msn all night back in the day and he might remember better than me but I think we worked out 28 pound was the needed injectors for that setup.

Remember you are going to want to run like 11.5:1 air fuel ratios to keep everything nice and rich/cool and alive and right there you need 10% more fuel that you thought compared to 13:1

Also just run more fuel pressure if you want to do it on the cheap

 

[PaRaDoX]

yes but who can honostly say they've have had success bumping fuel pressure up?

reaper, compression is a MUST for cam, mines suffering with 8.4:1, if you want ill share my tune with you.. its pretty much perfect for a 276.. idle could be a little better as low rpm idle+no comp isnt fun, sv5000 uses like 800rpm idle, i bumped mine down to 700 as i dont like the car pulling forward heaps on idle tune is good under throttle

in 2-3 weeks heads are comming off mine and im going to dial it in and raise the compression

as i said before 24lb injectors are too small for that much boost you want 32lb atleast!
ask tyson or stocky, they got their injectors from a US site, 42lb injectors for $240 or something

 

[Emackulation]

My custom tune from Foam is SV5000 based without knocksensor board Reaper, goes better then the GTS one.

 

[Reaper]

reaper, compression is a MUST for cam, mines suffering with 8.4:1, if you want ill share my tune with you.. its pretty much perfect for a 276.. idle could be a little better as low rpm idle+no comp isnt fun, sv5000 uses like 800rpm idle, i bumped mine down to 700 as i dont like the car pulling forward heaps on idle tune is good under throttle

in 2-3 weeks heads are comming off mine and im going to dial it in and raise the compression

Yeah I was thinking about that route. How kosher is it to shave the heads to bump up the compression or do I have to put in a new set of slugs? (Trying to be cheap ).

Would like to look at your tune - I'll pm my private email address to you. Much appreciated and of course am happy to share anything I find with my own development too.

Reaper